A Priest Forever In The Order Of Melchizedek

Today I wish to discuss a mystery with you. It is a mystery that has intrigued many Christians around the world for nearly two thousand years. And though we cannot solve the mystery today, let us examine the important truths about the priesthood of Jesus Christ we learn as we lay out the clues the Bible provides to the mystery. We are all familiar with priests, right? In the West, priests are often Catholic or Orthodox, wearing white or black robes. In the times of the Bible, the Jews had priests, some of whom were among my ancestors, who wore linen and served in the Temple in Jerusalem. Here in Thailand we see priests in the form of Buddhist monks in their saffron robes. But what makes Jesus Christ different as a priest than the priests we see around us?

Jesus Christ, The High Priest

The author of Hebrews has a lot to say about Jesus Christ as a high priest. For example, he begins talking of Jesus Christ’s role as the high priest for believers in Hebrews 4:14-16. In Hebrews 4:14-16 he says the following: “Seeing then that we have a High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tested as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” As our High Priest, Jesus Christ can go to God on our behalf so that our sins can be forgiven, for He lived a perfect life, without sin, and yet understands precisely what it is like to live as we are, as a mortal human being subject to the effects of an evil and sin-filled world.

When the author of Hebrews later brings up Jesus Christ as a priest in the order of Melchizedek, he does so in the context of talking about Abraham. In Hebrews 6:13-20, the author of Hebrews tells us of the hope we have in Christ because of His identity as a priest. Hebrews 6:13-20 reads as follows: “For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, saying, “Surely blessing I bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.” And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil where the forerunner has entered for us even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”

What does this passage mean? For one, it means that God will perform what He promises because His will cannot fail and because He cannot lie. Once He decides something, His decision is final, and it will come to pass. God also wishes for us to endure patiently before we receive the promised blessings that He has promised to us by His oath. We should be steadfast in our faith, though, knowing that His will cannot fail and that He will do as He has promised. Additionally, we see that Jesus Christ has pierced behind the veil and has become our High Priest forever. In the temple in Jerusalem there was a veil that separated God from man, a separation that has been ended forever now that Jesus Christ has died for our sins and been resurrected to serve as our High Priest in Heaven, according to the order of Melchizedek.

Who Is Melchizedek?

Who is Melchizedek, though? No one knows for sure. His father and mother are not listed in scripture, and unless the city of Salem, which he ruled, and which means peace in Hebrew, is the same as Jerusalem, we do not know where exactly he lived either. Some people have speculated that he was Shem, and many people think that he was Jesus Christ Himself before He came to earth as a human being. At any rate, we do not know for sure and can only make a reasonable guess.

We do know, however, that he appears for the first time in scripture in Genesis 14, where Abraham goes after defeating an alliance of four Mesopotamean kings and rescuing his nephew Lot, a citizen of the city of Sodom at the time, a city later destroyed by God for its sins. Lot had been taken captive because his city and four nearby allies rebelled against their rulers and stopped paying their taxes. After returning from his successful rescue mission, he is greeted by two kings, the king of Sodom, and the king of Salem. He goes first to the king of Salem.

Their encounter is told in Genesis 14:18-24. Let us read it today. Genesis 14:18-24 reads as follows: “Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine: he was the priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said: “Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand.” And he gave him a tithe of all. Now the king of Sodom said, “Give me the persons, and take the goods for yourself.” but Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have raised my hand to the Lord, God Most High, the Possessor of heaven and earth, that I will take nothing, from a thread to a sandal strap, and that I will not take anything that is yours, lest you should say, ‘I have made Abram rich’–except only what the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men who went with me: Aner, Eschol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.”

Abraham, before dealing with the impatient king of Sodom, eats bread and drinks wine with the king of Salem. Bread and wine are the symbols of the Passover that baptized members of God’s Church take each year in commemoration of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins, and therefore it is significant that Abraham is said to have had this meal with this obscure priest and king of the Almighty God, ruler of heaven and earth, whom Jesus is said to be like. We see also that before this priest and king, Abraham made an oath before God not to take any of the property of the people or king of Sodom for himself. We see Abraham therefore as a righteous and powerful leader who cannot be bribed by the wicked, but who faithfully worships God, tithing to God just as we too are commanded to do.

A Messianic Prophecy

We next hear of Melchizedek in Psalm 110, a messianic psalm that refers directly to Jesus Christ. Let us now turn to this scripture, a psalm that David wrote about his descendant. Psalm 110:1-7 reads as follows: “The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool.” The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies! Your people shall be volunteers in the day of Your power; in the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning. You have the dew of Your youth. The Lord has sworn, and will not relent, “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.” The Lord is at Your right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath. He shall judge among the nations. He shall fill the places with dead bodies, He shall execute the heads of many countries. He shall drink of the brook by the wayside; therefore He shall lift up the head.”

This passage has some interesting parallels with the account we just read in Genesis 14. For one, the psalm speaks about bringing judgment upon evil kings, like Abraham did, making one’s enemies one’s footstool just as God did for Abraham. Additionally, we see an oath—just as Abraham made an oath not to take what was Sodom’s, God is shown here making an oath to His Son, Jesus Christ, to make Him an eternal priest according to the order of Melchizedek. We also see here that God and Jesus Christ are separate beings, speaking to each other face to face, one being to another.

The Greatness of Christ’s Priesthood

Let us now return to Hebrews 7:20-28, where we find out why the priesthood of Jesus Christ is superior to all other priesthoods here on earth. Hebrews 7:20-28 reads as follows: “And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: “The Lord has sworn and will not relent, ‘You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek’ “), by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. But He, because He continues forever has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.”

Let us take a moment to understand the importance of what this passage means, because it defines the difference between the priesthood of Jesus Christ, the order of Melchizedek, from all other priesthoods that have ever been made of human beings serving on this earth. Most high priests serve without an oath from God, receiving their robes in ceremonies because others have died before them, so that they succeed to the office themselves. All human beings are flawed, and have sinned, and therefore all human priests, before they can appeal to God to forgive the sins of the people, must first ask God to forgive them of their own sins. All human priests, in addition, are limited in their abilities to serve as pure and holy priests by being mortal human beings who live on this earth in and among the wicked.

Jesus Christ does not have these limitations. He lived without sin, and is therefore pure and holy. In heaven He is far above the earth and separate from all sinners and all moral corruption. He gave His life as the ultimate sacrifice, paying once and for all the death penalty for those who repent and believe in Him as their savior, king, high priest, and elder brother. He serves for all time, without dying, unlike human priests, by an oath from our Father in heaven above. Therefore, His is a perfect and righteous and holy priesthood, without flaw and without end.

Conclusion

In conclusion, let us note that the importance of Melchizedek is in serving as the model for the perfect priesthood of Jesus Christ, who has paid the price of our sins and opened the way for us into eternal life. Let us remember, though, that we are ourselves initiates in this priesthood. Let us turn to one final scripture, 1 Peter 2:9-10, to understand the personal importance of the Melchizedek priesthood for every believer. 1 Peter 2:9-10 reads as follows: “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people, but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.” We too, if we continue believing in God and following His laws and His ways, developing the mind and character of God and Jesus Christ within us, will be raised up into eternal life with incorruptible bodies, where we too will serve under our High Priest and elder brother Jesus Christ as priests forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Let us work so that we will be ready when that day comes.

About nathanalbright

I'm a person with diverse interests who loves to read. If you want to know something about me, just ask.
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51 Responses to A Priest Forever In The Order Of Melchizedek

  1. Kelly Irvin says:

    Melchizedek, “without father, without mother, without genealogy, nor beginning of days”, was the one who became Jesus of Nazareth…

    Hebrews 7:1 For this “Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God,” the one meeting Abraham “returning from the slaughter” “of the kings,” “and blessing him;”
    2 to whom also Abraham “divided a tenth from all” (first being interpreted, king of righteousness; and then also king of Salem, which is, king of peace, Gen. 14:17-20
    3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, nor beginning of days, nor having end of life, but having been made like the Son of God, he remains a priest in perpetuity). (LITV)

    To simplify the sentence, removing references to Abraham, “For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, which is, king of peace, without father, without mother, without genealogy, nor beginning of days, nor having end of life, but having been made like the Son of God, he remains a priest in perpetuity.”

    Also, I believe Salem is not an earthly city, but either a state of Peace, or, if a location, Heaven, itself.

    • You are stating opinions not facts. I happen to believe myself that Melchizedek was the preincarnate Jesus Christ, but the Bible does not explicitly say (though it is implied by the author of Hebrews, whose identity is likewise not known for certain because it is not explicitly said in scripture). We cannot assume that our own human reasoning, no matter whom we hear it from, carries the same force as a direct citation from scripture. Likewise, there is no way of knowing what or where the Salem that Melchizedek was king of represents. It could be “peace” as Isaiah 9 speaks of the Messiah as the “prince of peace.” It could be the Jerusalem that is above, the heavenly city of which all believers are citizens. It could be both of those, and something else in addition. The Bible does not explicitly say.

  2. Kelly Irvin says:

    Nathan,

    I disagree with your first assessment. My “opinion” does not enter the mix, unless you can explain to me any other possibility of another person who meets the criteria given in all of history, I will reconsider. All angels had a beginning. Are you going to suggest a 3rd Person of the Godhead, which would mean, if the Catholics accepted your conclusion, God would be no longer two, but three, to us, and four to them?

    Your “belief” should not be based in opinion, especially in such matters.

    • It would seem to be a bit of a non-sequitor. My point in my sermonette (and my comments) was that the Bible does not explicitly say who Melchizedek was. What you did was make a reasonable guess, but it is a guess nonetheless. You seem to conflate what the Bible says about the historical Melchizedek (very little–namely that he was king of Salem and was higher on the biblical order than Abraham, since Abraham paid tithes to him) and what it says about Jesus Christ, who (as you correctly say) uniquely meets the qualifications for being our eternal high priest. But the case for Jesus Christ being Melchizedek is only an implication or a surmise, one that would no doubt be stronger than it is had the author of Hebrews not considered his audience weary of hearing more information about it. Our loss.

  3. Joe says:

    1 Peter 2:9-10 reads as follows: “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people, but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

    I will go out on a tiny limb here and dangle on the edge to see what response I get from this.

    Who is Peter here talking to and about ? If all sects, denominations, orthodoxies (if that is a correct word) and faiths believe Peter is talking to them , then who is right?

    And; “understand the personal importance of the Melchizedek priesthood for every believer”
    is scripture to be interpreted by the individual and brothers’ and sisters’ in the faith to agree to disagree to avoid polemic divinity?

    “It could be “peace” as Isaiah 9 speaks of the Messiah as the “prince of peace.”,”

    What about the notion that God is above human comprehension? Are we wasting our time trying to figure out who and what God is rather than discussing to grow each and separate lives as individuals within a whole that being Christ?

    When I read that all that you are discussing, I got the impression that Christ was not a part of any “organization” and Melchizedek’s parents represented that he had no other priest to call on God for him, he called on God directly, and he was borne of the Spirit meaning he had no genealogy that could be traced back to any sect, etc.

    Just an impression I got so please don’t crush me too soon okay?

    • Actually, I happen to wholeheartedly agree that God is not talking about a sect here. I do not believe there is an organization or sect that has a special “inside track” to divine favor. Nor do I wish that any of my own words be misconstrued in that fashion. Nonetheless, to be in peace and harmony with God we must be followers of His way, and so only those who have a personal relationship with God, are led by His Holy Spirit (whom He alone knows the identity of for certain), and who are obedient to His laws for the right reasons (proceeding from faith and not from a desire to be justified by our own works), are likely, based on what we know about God from the Bible, to be a part of that Melchizedek priesthood when Jesus Christ returns to establish His kingdom over the whole earth. And those who are His at His second coming will be a part of that mission of peace, pacifying the world and putting it under God’s law–for that is what we see when we look at Exodus 19:5-6 as well in the context of the giving of God’s laws to Israel at Mount Sinai. Obedience from the heart leads to a personal relationship with God, including the forgiveness of sin (see Psalm 51), and that is what demonstrates we are chosen, regardless of what sect or organization we attend. For the body of Christ is not divided, something we cannot say of any human sect or organization, even among those who genuinely seek to follow God’s way as best as human possible.

      • Joe says:

        “And those who are His”?
        How does one know this? Would it not be arrogance on the part of the person claiming to be?
        “a personal relationship with God”,?
        How does one know this? and by what religious organizations standards or doctrine?
        “what sect or organization we attend. For the body of Christ is not divided”?
        All religious factions are divided are they not? By enmity they seem to be, and jealousy and hierarchy. Its really petty stuff and most parishioners seem to ignore such things, I can’t. I am not perfect in any way but I find it difficult worshiping God in a house divided by such petty things..
        God, Jesus, Man/woman, truth in three, can this be divided?
        If you say are a believer and I see no reason to doubt it when I see it in your eyes and in your actions towards me and others and you see the same in me, who can say which one of us has the truth?

        I have tried to “fit in” with a number of different denominations and faiths but I just can’t seem to get passed the enmity and find how they say “a home church.

        I can’t recall the chapter and verse, however it says something like; “what sort of house will you build for me?”
        And what does it mean to be a “discreet and faithful slave”?

        I cannot help but to see God as I see Him and when I meet a person who claims to be a believer I listen and as I sated before , I agree to disagree and hope he/she can do the same as God is above human comprehension again.
        Forgive me but I can’t believe in a true world peace as their are over six billion opinions, only relative peace.

        What does it mean? John 3:8 “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

        Please I am not looking for an argument, I am merely seeking true kinship. You can ask and I will stop at any time.

      • You seem very troubled by the divisions that exist in this world, by the lines that divide sects and organizations from each other. I merely see that as evidence that we have not yet acquired the righteous character of God–including His peace–and I know I have a long way to go yet. That said, I also believe that while we are commanded to fellowship with other believers (Hebrews 10:24-25), I also wholeheartedly agree that any fellowship we attend will be flawed and imperfect, not least because it will include flawed individuals like ourselves. Perhaps you ought to cease to demand perfect truth or perfect righteousness in an assembly or congregation of humans before you will be a part of it. We cannot hope to meet such a standard ourselves–we all fall short of the glory of God due to our sins (Romans 6:23). And the same standard we club others over the head with will be used to measure us (Matthew 7:2).

        The truths of the Bible are not all equally obvious. God and the Bible are our ultimate authorities as believers, but there is much that we believe that is not directly stated from God nor directly present in the Bible. Some of it may be true, others not. If either your mind or my mind does not accept the premises of the other, or the interpretation of scripture from the other, we can come to no agreement about the “truth” the other is saying. In such cases all we can do is follow God according to the knowledge He has given us, and leave the rest to His instructing us in this life to teach us His ways and paths better, or His judgment on us later on when He will at last reveal to us those answers to the deepest questions of our hearts. I am not your judge and executioner, nor anyone else’s, and I am not seeking an argument either. I am seeking a dialogue, and I am not sure why this has to be so difficult to find, even in such matters as passionate and important as faith and religious practice.

  4. Joe says:

    You seem like a very decent and sincere person and I find that to be rare in this jaded world. Most people I can’t trust but maybe I am being too sensitive about certain things. You have inspired in me something new and I hope I can come to terms with this problem I have as you stated. I want to go to the local church that is closest to me and I will let you know how things work out.

    Sometimes I even have trouble believing the Bible is written in its original form, what I mean is that for some reason I believe sometimes that someone, somewhere took over and wrote the Bible to suit their agenda. I would hate to find this to be true after committing to a church. Don’t get me wrong though, I have ministered to many people over the course of my years (no proselytizing or preachy preaching), that is what i meant by “faithful and discreet”, its just how I interpret that scripture. I am not comfortable with the common religious terminology and expressions found within religiosity, most of the time it feels fake when I hear it from someone, its almost like its scripted and rote.

    You said:
    “I am seeking a dialogue, and I am not sure why this has to be so difficult to find, even in such matters as passionate and important as faith and religious practice.”

    Have you also been having a difficult time trying to find someone to discuss the word with that you can trust? I just got the impression from your statement there for a minute.

    I would love to discuss the word with you if you wouldn’t mind as I too find it hard to find someone sincere who I believe is not trying to merely save their own soul.

    Have you ever heard of “The Carpenter’s Rule?

    • I have never heard of the carpenter’s rule, at least not that I can remember.

      It is sometimes difficult to find a dialogue because religious differences especially (so it seems) among people who share most beliefs, usually gets very quickly into emotional and heated discussion where the calm and reasonable voice of the mind is overwhelmed by passionate rhetoric on all sides (usually mine included).

      Well, I happen to believe that many people who quote or claim to follow the Bible have their own agendas. At times (such as in 1 John 5:7-8) it appears as if there were attempts to “add” to scripture to suit agendas, such as supporting the Trinity, but the large number of ancient manuscripts of the Bible usually makes it plain where the fraud was committed, thankfully. Mostly it is in interpretation or translation where people’s agendas with the biblical text become more troublesome, at least in my experience. A lot of “religious” people also use nonbiblical language that seems more like a code to scare away those who aren’t part of their own tradition than an attempt to explain the Bible in a way that is open for all to understand. I have to catch myself speaking in that kind of code myself at times, because it comes so easily.

      It is easy to be cynical in this world–hard to be aware and yet uncorrupted–but one of the main purposes of our fellowshipping together and sharing conversation with other believers of the Bible is for us to see our own flaws and work on them, and for us to provide help and encouragement to others as well. Each of us has our own honored and important part within the body of Christ, wherever we can find others of like mind and spirit to walk with.

      • Joe says:

        RE: “It is sometimes difficult to find a dialogue because religious differences”

        I agree, and this is why I say we must be civil enough to “agree to disagree” if we are to grow on any level or in any concern to anything actually.
        You are safe to state your points with me.

        RE: “the Bible usually makes it plain where the fraud was committed”

        I would love to read that, where can I find it?

        RE: “I have to catch myself speaking in that kind of code myself at times”
        Explain ?

        RE: “wherever we can find others of like mind and spirit to walk with.”

        This is the difficult thing for me.
        I loved it when you said that we should be discussing the word so that we all can grow and I agree with you wholeheartedly, however the sad reality is that many people do not do that “thorough and diligent search” long enough to carry a conversation about the word. It is reported time after time that they just don’t read their bible. This is the real shame.

        RE: Carpenter’s Rule
        http://www.editnse.org/the-carpenters-rule.php

        Have a great weekend,

        Joseph Richard

      • I will look up the carpenter’s rule site you have posted.

        Indeed, agreeing to disagree is very important in religious discussions, but also very difficult (at least for me personally).

        The Bible has enough manuscripts that are old enough and in enough languages to make it pretty plain when deliberate fraud has occurred. The most notable example is from 1 John 5:7-8, where some Greek scribes attempted to add a reference to the Trinity, because none exists in the Bible. Their addition reads: “in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and thee three are one. And there are three that bear witness” and theologians who speak in coded language call it the “Johanine Pericope.” I call it fraud, being somewhat blunter in language. Nonetheless, the fact is that we can recognize this fraud from the manuscripts themselves. Likewise, the Alexandrian textual family of the Bible (the NU text that forms the base of the NIV) removes John 7:53-John 8:11, and also adds some plural references to Jesus Christ showing some later Gnostic or Trinitarian influence to corrupt the original (see John 8:54, 9:4 for examples). Again, because we have a lot of biblical manuscripts starting from an early time (late first century, early second century) from a lot of different place throughout the Mediterranean Sea area, we are able to recognize when such tampering has gone on.

        I often lapse into the religious code language that I learned in my own youth because it comes naturally to me. Nonetheless, I try to let the texts I quote do as much of the talking as possible so that I do not have to try to talk over the text with my own ideas and interpretations. That is at least what I try to do. :B

        You are quite right that many people do not do a thorough search of the Bible, which makes them incompetent to discuss in any depth. When this incompetence is combined with certainty that one knows everything, the possibility of having a civil discussion with someone who knows more than they do about the Bible is nonexistent. There are many questions we have about the Bible that are, based on our current knowledge, unanswerable within the scriptures, and we must interpret as reasonable as we can. But we ought not to confuse our interpretations (however reasonable they may be, or how accurately they may turn out) with what the Bible says.

  5. Joe says:

    Nathan, I would like to invite you to become a member of my new campaign. I think you could make a huge difference. http://godsavethegreen.yolasite.com/

    • I will take a look at that. I looked at the rule of the carpenter, and I was struck by how Jude was so forceful and blunt against gnosticism, so it makes sense that he would be the patron apostle of bluntness, given his own writing.

      • Joe says:

        lol, is Jude really the apostle of bluntness, I never knew that or is that your own observation and interpretation, I don’t know but I would like to hear more of your impression about the Carpenter’s rule.

      • The website you linked to about the Carpenter’s rule commented that it was Jude the half-brother of Christ who was given the symbol of the club or cudgel (the sign of bluntness, straightforwardness) in various medieval art. Given the material of Jude, which not only I have noted, but a friend of mine has written a book about (he too is a blunt and straightforward person, appreciative of Jude’s approach also), it is unsurprising that he would have acquired a reputation for bluntness. Even the gnostic Catholics see Jude as the patron saint of lost causes, ironic when the cause he opposed was their own. That story has been sufficiently detailed in Alan Knight’s book Primitive Christianity In Crisis, though.

        I looked at your website about God Save The Green, and I was very curious about what sort of apologizing you wished to see ended. I believe it is pointless, and less than worthless, to require people or even wish people to apologize for the sins of others (say, the sins of our ancestors). After all, neither the person apologizing or being apologized to in such a case was responsible for the wrong. Additionally, the land Sabbath, where debts were forgiven, and the jubilee year, where all land was to be restored to its original owners, were ways in which people were not punished for the sins of their fathers. Do you, like me, wish to see that restored so that there is no need, nor likely any desire, for people to apologize about the greed and rapacity of their fathers because they will no longer be profiting economically from that theft themselves?

  6. Joe says:

    ” what sort of apologizing you wished to see ended”
    I am merely pointing out the fact that our children do not need apologies for our or our ancestors ignorance. Its analogical I guess, kind of like stop with the excuses and move on and make a difference to possibly create a safe and vital world for the next generations to come. That site is my part of contributing to the green movement of which I feel is a good one. The bit about forgiving the land and what it means to the people of this world again is analogical in respect to how the land forgives and moves on after in a sense, healing emotionally (equilibrium aka balance), so we must too. Its like a lesson from nature. I know I have trouble being clear with my points as they relate to my theory, and this is where I believe someone like yourself would be a vital resource for me to help work out and explain it better and in simpler terms. I have a grade eight education and my comprehension level I believe is low, however I have received some very positive commentary on my work and what it suggest and what can be predicted from it. Because of my research and theories, I can, and have been assisting people with many concerns such as depression, anxiety, social awkwardness., conflict resolution, prejudice, pride indifference, seriously. It works in a very short time and shows great results that last. The way it appears to work best is from casual conversation about what this theory suggests and implies. I do this very easy in the first person but I seem to have trouble putting it on paper and making it clear. I have a certain someone who is willing to test one of my theories NSE when I can raise the funds. I took my book off the market because I need to make it clearer and concise as I just mentioned I have trouble doing because I lack the education background. I could use some help. If you should become interested I believe we could possibly co-author a great book. Yes I feel I can trust you.

    • Where are you from? I can definitely understand (from extensive personal experience) that people with a lot of education tend to use a lot of words that are large and hard to understand. I know I do that a lot, naturally, without intending to confuse others. Such behavior can seem to be very intellectually arrogant to other people. What I have a harder time grasping are your own theories. For example, you stated about the need to stop apologizing, and I took this to mean for the wrongs of the past, in the whole “white-bashing” that occurs within politically correct cultural circles. That said, there is some apologizing that needs to go on–those who have beaten or abused or mistreated others need to apologize for their own actions, to rebuild the relationships they have harmed themselves. One must distinguish between apologies that are worthless (apologizing for what other people did to others), and that are vitally important (apologizing for what we did to those we are apologizing to). The first type of apology is for political effect, the second is redemptive and helps to restore trust and rebuild ruined relationships. Clearly, then, we ought to condemn the first type of sham apology and do all that is within our power to promote and practice the second type of apology, as a sign of genuine repentance, ourselves. It is hard to grasp the theories in your mind that undergird and support your own thoughts, though you are direct in expressing what you think and feel.

      • Joe says:

        Possibly Blunt? As the Carpenter’s Rule for me means True, in relation to what is perceived as concrete and measurable, again in relation to the five psychical senses, taste, touch, sight, sound and smell. What is true for you in respects to the senses is true for me also. I believe the Bible and the word of God to be that of absolute reality as it applies to these senses. If we needed any more than five to navigate and survive in this world, I am sure God would have supplied them to us. As for evolution, it has not supplied us with any more than five and so…….Back to the carpenter’s rule, as I believe to have reason to suggest the rule is “TRUE”, and can be true line, true plumb, true square, and to think just a bit laterally and philosophically or even spiritually one can say it can translate or represent, straightforward, upright, and just.
        Once again the apologizing I am referring to is how some people apologies without trying to change anything afterward. The point is to make people “think” and “realize” the plight of humanity and the conditions of this world at present and how it will effect our children to come. Our children don’t need to hear us say we are sorry for destroying the resources of this planet, they need us to get busty and try to fix things and to STOP destroying it for the sake of vanity and greed.

      • As human beings we have used our God-given abilities to gain some knowledge of that which is beyond our five senses (such as radar), and God has also given us intuition to fill in the missing gaps of the sense data that we have with reasonable (albeit imperfect) guesses. Without getting too far into speculation as far as the nature of God’s design, I believe that God designed different people with different gifts and abilities so that mankind would be forced to work together to accomplish His goals, so that no one could do it alone. Likewise, I believe God deliberately made us incomplete so that we would be encouraged to look to God for completion. That is explicitly what the Bible relates as far as Adam’s own sense of incompleteness without a wife “comparable” to him in the Garden of Eden (see Genesis 2:20). Concerning the five senses and our supposed dependence on them, it is useful to remember that, as I mentioned, there are at least two different human tendencies with regards to sense information. There are some people (including yourself, apparently) who focus on the sense data from touching, seeing, hearing, smelling, or tasting–but know that there are others (including myself) who focus on the abstract truths behind and beyond that sense data, to put the “facts” together into a larger puzzle picture. I do this without even thinking consciously about it, as naturally as breathing, and it is not for nothing that this strongly developed intuition is a “sixth” sense, beyond the five you mentioned. That is not to say that one approach–looking at the physical sense data and being very practically inclined or being intuitive and focused either on the feeling side of “relationships” or the thinking side of “cosmic patterns”–is better or worse than the other. But they are different, and without an appreciation of there being other ways that God has designed for mankind to live and behave it is hard to appreciate others in the proper fashion.

        Concerning your God Save The Green motive, again, I am trying to feel out exactly where you are going. Of course there are many people who apologize without having any desire to repent (this, like apologizing for the sins of one’s ancestors, is a sham apology). But the existence of sham apologies does not in any way negate the need for genuine apologies. In the same manner, the existence of improper ways of looking at God’s law does not negate the need for mankind to obey God’s law out of faith, rather than looking to justify one’s self to God by one’s works (an impossible task). The existence of bad motives does not make something good (like repentance, or obedience) worthless, it rather means we have to discern (probably intuitively) between good motives and bad with regards to apologies, or God’s law, or anything else that has been corrupted by sin in this fallen world. I wholeheartedly agree with you that we ought not to apologize for messing up the world that God has given to us to take care of as stewards, but ought to go about doing a better job. But we do that by focusing on what we should do instead and not on insulting the sometimes necessary apologizing that comes along with repentance. If we wish to obey God we must turn to His ways, and to repent in our hearts and show changed behavior in our actions, and He can tell the difference between sincere repentance and insincere sham apologies, thankfully.

  7. Joe says:

    I believe we are getting somewhere with this thread and that is……I too believe there is something else that we have as you say “intuition”, and a sort of “sixth sense”. One of the main points to my theory is that many are neglecting to include this intuitive sense as many are more inclined to reason from the logic and intellect. My work shows if some (atheists) continue to rely on and press for others to rely on the logic and intellect and are successful by convincing the major majority of humankind to do the same, then we are fast heading towards a God-less world where people have no compassion or empathy towards others.
    Studies have shown that empathy is dropping at a rapid rate among university students, they are favoring the logical and what they believe to be the “common sense” approach and perspective. As Tertullian said “I believe because it is absurd”. And Richard Dawkins said, “religion is absurd”.
    We know this and have known it for years but in no way does it discount God.
    This research that I have been involved in for over twenty years shows without a doubt that we are more abstract and absurd by nature and it is that we (humanity) as a whole, are intentionally ignoring this natural human attribute if that is the right word.

    Allowing one’s self to include this neglected side of our make up will also without a doubt permit us to experience compassion and empathy. It is to say this other side of human nature is that of humanity being absurd sensation based paradoxical beings of implied essence and inference.
    It is this side of us that we employ when we communicate with God. Because it is absurd, it is called faith and belief. Sometimes I feel like stopping now and simply living out my life and not bothering trying to encourage people to turn to their absurd nature and reflect on God.

    Sometimes I feel like it says in the Bible somewhere that a man went out into a field and found a treasure and he took it home and he buried it. At times when I reflect on this I just want to keep what I believe I have been allowed to see and just forget about everyone else. and leave things up to God. The problem is when I think about doing that I feel like I am not in God’s plan and this leaves me feeling alone in the universe. I am not trying to “save my soul” as I believe that has been taken care of by Christ Jesus. I seriously am concerned with the way things are going and how it will effect and affect my children and all children. These are more my concerns than saving my soul.

    I did mention that I believe you and I could co-author a great book and I want you to think about it for a while, pray about it and see what happens. The book would have to be about “The Carpenter’s Rule”, as being “True, the absurd side of humankind that leads us to pray, and the need for schools to include and encourage autonomous learning as it also leads us to experience compassion and empathy.

    There is more and if you decide to investigate this further I am sure if I take the time to explain more of this research and you took the time to do a little reflecting and praying on it, we could manage to accomplish something that may encourage unbelievers to take a second look.

    As Jesus said I believe, “the sick need the doctor not the healthy. S all the books and all the preaching to the Church, God forgive me, sometimes is just a “tickling of their ears” , and we know many Christians do not even complete the journey of conducting that ” diligent and thorough search and investigation”.
    It is the unbeliever that suffers the greatest pain and hits back at the unsuspecting and innocent. I have often entertained the idea of titling my book, “God for the Atheist”

    Use your God given ability to infer what I am implying and I believe you will get it. Remember that my work is about the absurd side of human make up, it is not absurd ideology or utopian idealism. It is faith based and has enough hard science to justify it as not being absurd to be rejected as one rejects a useless theory.

    • Joe says:

      Please take a look at this to help you understand a bit more about my theory.

      http://www.editnse.org/

    • I will do so–seek God’s wisdom through prayer and meditation. The whole “design inference” is both something dealt with by Paul in Romans 1 as a problem for the materialistic and atheistic philosophers of his day, some 2000 years ago, as well as a problem in the current scientific and academic establishment. In both cases, not coincidentally, the link between intellectual arrogance and a lack of sound “intuition” came about because of the desire to escape moral limitations on action and thought. Those who wish to live crooked lives have to deny the existence of a creator and ultimate authority.

  8. Joe says:

    Have you found something too much for you to agree to disagree with? I apologies as I know you are busy

    • Will do. I have a vague idea of that it’s about, but nothing specific enough to comment on at length.

      Edit: Okay, I looked at it, and that was way more clear. I have some questions, though I think I may need to comment on them on a separate thread, one devoted to the subject. I will ruminate on such matters, and possibly post something preliminary in about three hours or so.

      • Joe says:

        This is my new wiki page that I have devoted to this research, you may want to look at this and I hope you will become a member and help me work it out, I think people like you and I are really onto something. You can ask and contribute here , I have left that other site and made my own as I have nothing to do really with thermodynamics much in the way that site looks at it. my work is more about the Human condition. I will be inviting some people to join also.

        http://pohn.wetpaint.com/

      • Well, that’s good to know. Your focus is more on the human nature aspect, and you look for others to collaborate with who have different interests. That’s a very savvy approach.

  9. Joe says:

    Oh and you can also add any new information or a theory of your own if you like by adding a page

  10. Joe says:

    That’s great Nathan, you are helping me in ways that you may not be aware of and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate what you are doing, thanks. By the way this is an interesting note for you.
    I realize that some people can and will benefit from what this research can offer however, I have reason to believe that a person of faith will have a greater degree of satisfaction and benefit more from it. It just appears as such that without faith a person cannot sustain or hold onto or grow what this work is suggesting or offering. Surprisingly it is welcomed by many atheists whom I have come into contact with and hopefully it will give them something to think about as it does hinge on a certain spirituality or faith based language bent on the creator God.

    I have never considered my self to be an evangelist nor do I believe I am doing some kind of ministry. Simply I am a person who has had personal experience with what this theory stands to help out with. I am a very ordinary lay-person of little education and a whole lot of passion and motivation. I was the first to experience the full affects of this work and can tell you it really does do what I report that it can and only then by the grace of God as He makes all things possible.

    • Have you not read Ephesians 4:12? All believers have a ministry, a work of our own, based on the experiences and talents that God has given us. If this is yours, then in your work of teaching and healing you are doing what God has put you on earth to do. No one can do more or better than that. It is intriguing that your work has given atheists food for thought–for it feeds their God-given reason, and enters their mind where they are able to accept the truth.

  11. Joe says:

    Your words are very inspiring and have given me much to think about. If you go to my personal website http://www.editnse.org/ and use the “contact” link at the bottom I will send you something I believe will help you better understand how it is that atheists have trouble believing and what it is that interests them and gives them something to think about. There is so much more that I can show you that will help you understand if you want to continue and learn more. What we have been discussing is just a very small part of the whole theory. I will give you this much for now but if you feel it is right for us to continue discussing it then we perhaps should continue in private conversation as well as in an open forum. It is 6 :30 am and I have to get off to work, please say a little prayer for me that my finances improve as I am poor by these standards and could use a little support. My children are grown but I have a fourteen- year old boy still at home whom I have to support and care for. It is tough being a carpenter in these hard economic times as I am sure you are aware of. MGB.

    “During the act of sincere forgiveness the hypothalamus releases neurotransmitters in the form of dopamine/nor epinephrine, and serotonin, resulting in a feeling of well being,” therefore it must be concluded that: “A person existing in a state of, agape’ (noun,pl-pae. Greek word for love of humanity) and endowed with a predetermined willingness to forgive, to act with justice and without prejudice, would indeed have a consistent and sufficient secretion of opioids resulting in a feeling of well being , good general health and cellular wellness promoting longevity.” Crant (2002)

  12. Joe says:

    Note: I wanted to tell you this part of my work “sincere forgiveness” is based on empirical evidence of which I have documented references.

    • Now that is what I find very interesting. The living proof of biblical principles in the research and in the data is obviously of great interest to me. We should expect that God’s word would be fulfilled and verified throughout history and science, and nothing less.

  13. Joe says:

    There is more but perhaps we should discuss this in private.

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